Freedom With NFTs - Lauren Turton and Alana McCarthy talk sales and pricing - April 27, 2022
Yeah. Hi, it's Amy with velvet crab. I can't show my face because I'm not in a good place, But I'm here Today.I'm good. How are you Lauren?
I'm doing wonderful. I'm excited about our discussion today because it's come up so much, not just in this group message that we're in on Twitter, but it's come up a lot in conversations I'm having in my community conversations that I'm having in one-on-one conversations.And I find it really interesting that this topic is coming up all around the same time for several people, which for me, that means that there is a shift that's happening.That means that there's something taking place in the web three space right now in regards to more opportunities and people getting paid to help other companies or brands on what we've all been working on in the space over X amount of time.So that's pretty cool to see that this is a common question that's coming up right now. Are you thinking this question as well?There, this topic come up?
Yes, definitely. Um, recently I had to quote on an NSP project, um, a generative art project, um, and it was great, but there was a lot to consider and a lot to take into account in terms of like the size, the scope.Yeah. Just so I have a lot of questions too. So I've been kind of going around and, uh, just kind of interviewing people that have, um, quoted on projects like this and, uh, yeah, just trying to gather some data so that it'll help other artists out there.And I eventually, what I want to do is, um, gather all this information and make it into some kind of guide artists reference.Um, so that creators can go to it and use it as reference and know where they're coming from in terms of pricing.
Wonderful. So before we get going into today's discussion, I'll take a quick moment to introduce myself or anyone who might not know me, and then we can have you introduce yourself as well.And then the way that we can do the call today is we can be as interactive or not interactive as anyone in the audience wants to be.We can have cameras on, have cameras off. We can interact in the comments. If you want to come on screen and ask a question or just have a conversation with us, we can be very and how we show up today.
So a quick introduction on who I am, hello, I'm Lauren Turton and host of the podcast. Freedom with NFTs, I interview NFT enthusiast so they can share their tools, tips, and tricks.So you can dive even deeper into creating your version of freedom with NFT's most notable. So far on the show has been Gary Vaynerchuk.I wrapped up season one with 21 episodes. We had over 65,000 listens and I am in the process of starting to report for season two.
I'm really happy to share with you all that I received a grant from NIR and they funded 32 episodes. So I'm very, very, very excited.Thank you. And I'm also co-founder of She quest. We are on a mission to provide education strategy and support for women as they enter the web three space.So they can launch successful web three projects. We also have a program for women to become full-stack devs, as well as a documentary of the leading women of what three, which we started reporting about three weeks ago when I was in LA for NFT L a before I entered the web three space, I was a business coach.I would help my clients create and launch high ticket offer and then leverage organic marketing to scale their businesses. And this is where I have some experience in regards to, um, my own experience with sales or pricing, as well as helping my clients navigate the world of sales and pricing.So today I'm really excited to drop in and share some golden nuggets with you all, and hopefully it'll help you on your journeys.So it's a little bit about me and I'd love to hear more about you.
Yeah, for sure. I'm Alana McCarthy.Oh, wait. What's happening here? Full screen mode. Okay. Omar. Hi. Um, I'm Alana McCarthy. I'm an illustrator from Toronto, Canada.I've been at it professionally for 20 years. Um, I've had some big name clients like absolute vodka, Scholastic wall street journal.Coca-Cola, Taco Bell, Adobe. Um, pretty much I'm all about kind of squashing, the starving artist myth. Um, I don't think that has to be a thing anymore, especially with the internet.Um, you can pretty much, uh, make all kinds of income, passive income income with clients. Uh, there's just no excuse if you hustle hard enough, you can do it, I believe in you.
Um, so yeah, so I started, uh, into the NFT space, um, around November. Um, I just kind of took a Skillshare course and I was like, okay, what's the NFT thing all about.So I ended up, um, minting one on T and I was like, oh, that was easy. Okay. This isn't going to be that difficult as an artist.And, uh, yeah. And then I started diving in, I found out it was a heck of a lot more work just in terms of coding.And then I saw these projects with like 10,000, like, um, images and I'm like, how do they do that? I looked that up.I learned coding. I discovered I had to build a community and on and on and on. So yeah, so I'm just trying to add NFTs to my whole, um, buffet of different, uh, ways to make income as an artist, as a thriving, creative professional.And, um, yeah, I'm really glad to be here. Uh, I think that's me in a nutshell
Thank you so much for sharing all of that.And I love what you're doing right now in regards to asking questions and finding out what's happening in the space in regards to pricing.Because as we shared at the beginning, there's definitely a shift that's happening right now in the web space in that people are now being hired by large companies, either in the web space or the web too space to share their areas of expertise is in the web three space.And so the question is now, well, how much do I charge? How much do I charge if someone reaches out to me to speak on their virtual event or platform, or how much do I charge to consult on a web three projects?So I'm curious to know Alana, what have you found so far in your research as you've been asking questions in regards to pricing?
So, um, I've been asking around and it seems to be, uh, I mean, there's a huge, huge range depending on the project, but, um, from some of the people that I've spoken to that have, um, seen a few projects, uh, it's kind of like a five to 20 K range.Um, and that might be for the work upfront. And then usually artists are negotiation negotiating for a portion of the sales afterwards as well.Um, actually one story that I saw was about the, um, the artist that worked on Bored Apes. Uh, she actually, I it's rumored that she got paid about $40,000.And I mean, as an artist, if, if someone had come up to me and been like, we're going to give you $40,000 to drop a bunch of variables and stuff, I'd be like over the moon.I'm like, that's crazy. That's like, you know, really good money. But then in retrospect, I don't think she asked for any royalties.So now that $40,000 does not seem that great. Imagine if she was getting royalties off of every bored ape yacht club sale, like girl would be a millionaire.
So there's a lot of things to consider. And I think, I think also going into a project, you really do have to consider, uh, you're the client you're working for.Like, like, are they a big company? Are they funded? Are they not funded yet? Um, you may want to, if maybe you don't have faith in the project, maybe you just want to get paid up front and be like, you run with it.Um, or maybe you do have faith in the project and you want to come on as more of, um, a shareholder.Uh, you want to get royalties from it. I think it's basically, you really do have to negotiate in terms of feeling fair about doing the work and, um, and also making it fair for everyone else.
Sorry, this, this Omar screen is very distracting. Omar is there. I'm going to put, stop, share. There we go. Oh, You got to act okay.Okay. Okay. I put, I that did stop sharing, so then we should be good to go.
Um, no, I love, I love what you shared there.There's so many different thinking points in regards to how you need to go about navigating. When you are pricing yourself for a project, do you want to be paid up front?Do you want to have royalties? Is this a project that you want to be a part of short term? Is this a project you want to be a part of long-term and then also, who is the client that you are working with?Are you working with a client that has funding? Are you working with a client that does not have funding? What's the story of the client that you're working with?Also, some things to consider when it comes to pricing, is, is this a, um, project that you might be coming to as something as like, it gives back, is this something that you're doing as like philanthropy?Is this something that you support in that way? Maybe you're volunteering your time for it because you believe so much in the cause.And so there's a lot that goes into how to price yourself when working on a project.
So I appreciate you sharing all of those tidbits because I think that's really, really important for everyone in the space now or who might be watching the recording to think about when you are looking at how to actually price yourself.Is there anything else that you've found as you've been navigating this that you'd like to share?
Yeah, I think it definitely, um, it kind of follows cause I mean, I've been in the illustration pricing game for a long time, and that is usually based on, um, kind of, you kind of come up with like a hourly rate.Like you find out all your fixed expenses and how much you would need to survive and then break it down.There's a, you can Google it online. There's a lot of, um, Telus calculators that can help you find that out.And then you kind of tack on and figure out how much would you like to make freelancing? And you keep that hourly rate in your head and then you go in and you kind of price, according to how many eyeballs are going to be seeing, um, the campaign or whatever it is, the book that you're working on.Like, is it a big company? Is it a mom and pop? Is it a national magazine? So I kind of take that into account as well.And, um, personally I would avoid, um, charging hourly because I think it's a real detriment to artists. Like, especially me, who's been at this 20 years.It's like, yeah, I can make a logo in two hours. What I'm going to charge 200 bucks for that. Like, that's not, there's much more value to the client.Um, and so I really believe more in value based pricing.
And I think that comes into consideration when you're working on an empty project, like how valuable is your artwork to this project?Will this artwork help your NFT clients sell their projects? Will it help them create income? You really have to value yourself and work that into the pricing situation too.And, um, you can, some of these projects are like or generative. Um, so you would be creating a base, like say my cat chonks.Like they all kind of have the same body shape and stuff. And then I just vary up the costumes and the hat and stuff like that.So you can even break down the pricing like that. Like say maybe you have one base trait and then you have like 10 different hair and then you have 15 different glasses and, you know, 15 different clothing items and stuff like that.And you can break those down into prices as well.
So maybe you're asking for 3000 for the body and then maybe 150 for the costumes and then maybe 75 bucks for all the different hairs each and that can add up
And then also you have to take into consideration, like, are you doing the coding? Are you doing the generation? Are you doing the rarity, um, aspect of it?Are you figuring that all out or do they have a developer that is going to do that for you? So there's, there's a lot of different whenever I do price, something like that, I just really break it down for the client so they can see where the numbers are coming from.And I think it gives them more confidence to see what they're spending on, rather than me just throwing a number at them.
Ooh, so many golden nuggets and really great takeaways from what you just said, breaking it down for the client. So they understand what it is they are paying for and exactly what goes into the work that you would be doing for them.And also something to remember when it comes to pricing is people are paying you for your education experience expertise. And so I also, um, I think it's important, yes.To have an hourly rate range in your head that, you know, covers all of your expenses, including taxes, which I think is something that people really overlook when they get into the freelance space, but really going into the world of creating a package.And this is the package and here are different tiers of a package. And this is what this includes so that the client fully understands the scope of work and what it is that you're taking on.The other thing is people are paying. And I know I said it earlier, but remember your education experience and expertise, like that's a really, really important thing.I know when I'm bringing on freelancers into my world, I'm like, yes, I'm going to pay you. I literally have no idea how to do that topic.I need you. And also people are paying you to help them condense this time. So they are paying for your education experience and expertise so that you can help them condense time and solve a problem quicker for them.That's something else for everyone to remember is that you are solving a problem for someone else in the space, whether it's a freelance project, like your saying, or if you are somebody who knows about a certain topic and you get booked to speak on a virtual event or on a live stage is you are helping them solve a problem, like giving your valuable information, your education, your experience, your expertise to their audience.
So that, that is something that you can charge money for in good money for, um, something that I recently have gone through in regards to getting booked to speak on a virtual platform is there's an organization that reached out to me and they wanted to book me to speak on 10 of their virtual events.The price point though, was that a price that didn't make sense on my end? Because it was, it was a very low price point.And I always try to figure out a win-win situation so that they can stay within their budget because I understand they have budget, but then also I could get the quantity that makes sense for what I need to get paid for my time.So then I went back to them and said, Hey, what about this idea? Maybe we do some prerecorded content where you're your groups, watch it in these sessions.And then maybe we do like a big group session together. So you also can look at budget of what other people have in mind.And this is something I always like to ask is, well, what's your budget? What is it that you're working with To be the first one to drop that number?But when you, when you ask that question, then you can actually try to understand like what's happening in their world so that you can figure out a win-win to work together, or you can decide this might not be a good fit if this is a client that literally has no budget, but you're over here saying like, well, no, I need to charge what I need to charge.You don't have to take every client that comes your way. So also keep that in mind, as you're navigating the space is that you don't have to work with everyone.Yeah. And the more you say no to these lower price projects, the more time it opens up for the higher clients to come along.It's funny because I had, I had been talking to an illustration client and he was just throwing up red flags left, right.And center for me, it was going to be good money, but he kept saying how he burnt through freelancers and how he likes to track everybody's time and blah, blah, blah.And all these, just so many red flags. And I hate walking away, but I did. And because I walked away the next day, I got a huge contract from a company in Silicon valley.And I wouldn't have had time for that, for that. So, you know, it all kind of evens out in the end.That's incredible. That really is. I'm proud of you for that. And thank you for sharing that with us. Um, so other things today that I just wanted to, for everyone just to think about is in regards to your own NFT projects, what you have going on in the world is people buy from brands that they know like and trust.So we need to be brands that people know like, and trust in the way that you do that is by putting content out into the world.So I know that most of us are here because we're on Tik talk together. We vibe on that platform and you're doing it.You're, you're, you're doing it. You're doing the job in regards to creating that know like, and trust factor. So keep putting content out there.I know sometimes we need to take breaks because personal things come up, um, mental health, et cetera. If you go through my content, you'll see.Sometimes I go in and out of creative content, but I try to stay consistent with it so that I can be a brand that people know like and trust whether it's, um, you know, for my community, for investing in my NFTs or when it's, when I'm pitching these larger brands for collaborations.Um, something else that I want to share, that's definitely happening in the space is that there is so much money in the web three space in regards to grants and funding.It is out there. It is happening. And it's our job as small business owners, because we all are now as people who create an FTS, we're in the space where small business owners, whether we realize it or not.When we first got into the NFT space, there is so much funding that's out there. And so a strategy that I recommend for you to do to start obtaining this funding is take a look at all of the websites for the large events that are taking place.So east Denver and Ft NYC, and FTLA the north American Bitcoin conference, look at these websites and go to the top.It says, sponsors, you are going to see a list of companies that have just spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to sponsor these events.These are companies that have money allocated for marketing opportunities. And let me tell you what, as a Tik TOK content creator, you are a marketing opportunity for this company.So that's one angle. You could go at it. Another angle that you can go in regards to obtaining funding is looking at their grants and funding page.What are they currently funding right now? I will tell you from all of the conversations that I've had since February, in regards to funding companies are funding projects, organizations, or platforms that are responsible for onboarding and educating people in the web three space, which I know most of you in this session now, or watching the recording, exactly what you're doing with the content without on Tik TOK, you are onboarding, you are educating because that is a problem that needs to be solved in the space.There are these massive companies out there that are spending the jillions of dollars on creating these platforms. But if they don't have enough users for the platform doesn't work, right?So they are looking to fund people just like us. We're content creators. So you look at these websites, you dig into the different funding opportunities.You maybe look at it from, Hey, I have a marketing opportunity tunity for you. The way that you can find the people who work at the company.Cause it's one thing just to submit an application and throw it in with other people who are, but start building personal relationships with people who actually work at these companies this morning.I said to myself, you know what? Coinbase NFT just came out. This is a new platform. There's the beta test.And I got the email to do a beta test or like signed up. I'm checking it out. And I was like, wait a minute, Lauren, holy crap.This is an opportunity as a content creator to be on the platform. When it's in beta test, before it goes public, I need to go off.I need to figure this out. So then I went on LinkedIn and I typed in Coinbase. And then there was everyone who works at point-based on LinkedIn.Then a lady popped up and it said the job description of we're hiring marketing and content creators, it was like, hello, I'm on Coinbase.And actually right now, I want to know how to best use this platform in beta. So I could be one of the beginning content creators on your platform.What do I need to do? What do I need to know what communities do I need to join? And so when you start thinking in this way, you're going to see that there's so many opportunities in this space right now.The other thing is if you're attending any IRL events, every single booth on the vendor booth floor, they've either paid to be on that floor, probably $10,000 to have a booth, or they have sponsored the event.Even more money. Those companies that are there, the IRL events, you can go up to them and say, are you looking for marketing opportunities?I'm a content creator. Let's have a discussion. These are great. You can follow up with, oh, thank you. You can follow up with the mattress and then the pitch, Hey, these are the packages that I, that I offer.And now I know there's a negative connotation in the web three space about NFT influencers. And I want to dive into that a little bit.It's one thing to align with a brand that solves a problem for people in the space and you know, that will solve a problem for your audience.So for example, Coinbase, they solve a problem for your audience. It is a wallet you could work with Coinbase and they could pay you to create content around their different features, what they offer, et cetera, so that you are educating your audience and you're helping them learn how to solve problems.They have. That is very different than getting paid by an NFT project. Pump a project on your platform. That is the difference between being like an NFT influencer and someone who works with a brand that solves a problem in this space.Great tips, Lauren. Oh my gosh. I'm taking notes actually, as you're talking. Well, you know, my, my, my whole thing right now in this space is I come from a business coaching background.And when I entered the web three space, I did not want to do web three consulting or coaching, but I did want to share with others, my experiences and what I learned on my journey so that you could take away any golden nuggets from what I just learned by being at NFT or where was I?And FTLA, uh, San Diego and FTE con um, Miami and MTV. And these are all things that I'm experiencing and learning.And I'm at that phase right now where it's like, I just obtained funding for the freedom of NFTs podcast. And I did at one point in time.Thank you. I did at one point in time when one of my tech talks went viral in my world had 200,000 views and the podcast had come out.I went through a phase where I had every NFT project. You can imagine in my inbox, how much does it cost?How much does it cost? How much can we pay you? How much can we pay you? And I was like, this is wild.And web two. We would have dreamed to have companies knocking on our door, offering to pay us to be on our platforms, but in the web three space, especially with how volatile it is.You don't know if it's a wrong pool. There's so many variables. It's not a space that I wanted to step into with that being said, I did realize that it does make sense to align with a brand that is solving a problem for people to space.And that is much different than being an inequity influencer. So with all that being said, I just liked sharing what I learned and experienced in the space.So that any golden nuggets or anything that you take away from what I share, you can apply it to your lives.Definitely. And it's so funny because I didn't really getting on Tik TOK. I didn't really see myself as a content creator.You know, it's like, I just wanted to document my journey, my dive into NFPS, and it just kind of came naturally.But yeah, these are definitely skills that you can take and run with for other companies I've already been approached by, um, kind of a community web three community site.They want me to do a talk on there, a live webcast for an hour, and then they're trying to negotiate like maybe an hour every three months or something like that.And yeah, so like, there's, there are so many opportunities, like you said, it's pretty crazy. And um, even other artists, like they, they reached out to me for mentoring and stuff and because yeah, people want their problems solved and not everybody has the time to dive into it.Right. So, so if I can coach them through like making a generative project and stuff like that and how to lay out the art and everything.Um, but I also want it to, um, value my time as well. So that's why I'm kind of working on, um, maybe some like value offers, uh, in terms of like a PDF kind of walk through for so that people can kind of DIY it and start researching it on their own, up to maybe another thing where they are paying for one-on-one strategy.So we'll see where that goes. Can you walk us through that for those that might not be familiar with how to structure different value offers?Can you, can you share with us about that? Yeah, sure. So, I mean maybe, uh, like one thing on the website, maybe someone will pay 40 bucks for like a PDF that kind of has links to like the how to, to launch your own NFP project, everything all at one spot.So this, this is like passive income, right? I make it one, I put it on the website, it sells themselves themselves.Actually I have something on my website right now for, um, for illustrators and graphic designers. Um, it's a contract, it's actually the contracts that I personally use.And, um, I've, I've kind of written it all out. It's based on when I had an illustration agent and uh, every, every term has a little sticky note on it, telling you the why behind it.So then you can all, you can go through alter it to your needs and stuff like that. So I've done the work for that.I put it up and it just does its own thing. So there's, there's the initial investment of time. But then beyond that, it's there ready to go.So then higher price price point would be a one-on-one session with me where maybe I sit down and I coach you through how to make an NFP project.What you, how you need to prepare your files, what kind of coding you would have to do, stuff like that.And of course that would be at an hourly rate because my time is valuable. So I, I think there's like different tiers of things you can offer.Um, I was even thinking of doing a course, uh, that would be prerecorded with maybe worksheets and PDFs. So maybe that's a middle tier where they're not getting the one-on-one, but they are getting the alpha that I have.It's incredible. So many opportunities in the space to, you know, monetize the time, energy and effort that I know all of us have clicked into the space.I see. Um, and I'm, I'm constantly having this conversation is how could we solve a problem for independent content creators who are busting butt on tech talk or other platforms, and we're not monetizing from it.What you just shared. There is very valuable for so many people who might not know that this is a way to monetize from what it is that we're doing.I also think it would be incredible if there was some type of program or platform for content creators by one of these larger organizations.Because again, we're solving a major problem for them. We are onboarding and educating people by just sharing our journeys on Tik TOK.So remember the power that you hold right now in regards to putting content out on Tik talk, you are very valuable and are very needed by these large companies and organizations because they need you to onboard people.We talked about it earlier, so really start to think creatively of like, how can I leverage what I'm doing right now and connect with another organization and either it could be a job opportunity or it could be like a sponsorship grant, other types of funding.That's great. Yeah. There's definitely lots of opportunities and lots of, um, ways to approach things. And I mean, people like web three people are also approaching me in so many different ways and there's no, there's no guide for it yet.And I find that the NFC community is actually, um, very forthcoming in terms of sharing information. So I have been reaching out to people that have been artists on projects or have, you know, hired artists on projects and stuff too.And, um, yeah, it's just, it's just such a wonderful community and everybody, I think, because we're all learning together, we're all kind of at the same stage that I think, um, people are really willing to share and not gatekeep information.Absolutely. Even like us coming on here today and talking about what we're learning and finding and our experiences. This is definitely something like in the web two world that probably wouldn't happen because people don't want to talk about what they're learning and finding as they're navigating.Um, so I'm curious if Melanie or anyone else in the audience has any questions or comments. Thank you for coming on screen.Hi. How are you? I have a comment if I could. This is Amy with velvet crab visuals, and I'm so glad you're doing this.And I think there's so much more to talk about. Obviously I love the conversation about buckets. Um, you know, about tears and pudding, you know, Alana, if there's a way I love the idea and I'm willing to do research for you too.I know people that have hired some larger projects that have hired artists and I'll get that information for you and just would love a compilation to be great for, for everyone out there to say, just like you said, I can provide artwork on a 10 K project or a three K project and it's $5,000 ish, correct.Like the range. Um, if I've got to do the coding and I've got to do X, Y, Z, then we're looking at another, you know, that might be a 10 K range.Um, you know, and I'm talking out in the side of my face right now, right? Because we don't have that information, but I'm just, um, count me in for whatever I can do, because this is huge.And I made a small comment and completely agree with you about hourly rate. And I do the same thing. I'm a professional artist as well.I'm a designer and product design and that's a whole different pay range there. So I have to really allocate, you know, what I'm getting paid for, depending on what projects I'm working on.But, you know, for the logo design, just like you said, my hourly rate, if it takes me two hours, I'm quicker than someone that would take them six hours to do something, um, that's adjusted.But I think there's a real importance for us and, and they, everybody can research of course, but just to say in the U S or, or a hint here, you know, a graphic designer makes 75 to $150 an hour, depending on your skillset.It honestly can be lower, right. If you're just starting out or something, but people don't even have that generalized encyclopedia of information.And I would love for them to have that because they're not you're right. The value we've got to value ourselves and everybody that's new in this space, there, some just amazing artists that are new to this freelance type of work.And I want them to succeed as well. But I think just that kind of encyclopedia based information we're missing too.So that, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And especially like, when you can go on Fiverr and someone in like kind of a third world country will do it for like 200 bucks, a 10 K collection.Like, you know, there has to be education, like they're, they're in a different socioeconomic situation than someone say in Canada or the U S um, and also, I just wanted to bring up my favorite book, the graphic artists, Guild, pricing and guidelines.There are, there's nothing about web three in here. So, I mean, you can see how thick it is. I'm going to attempt to write my own chapter to this book.Um, but I have seen actually, um, a bunch of spreadsheets going around for web three jobs, kind of, um, people can go on there anonymously, um, kind of Google spreadsheets and people are filling out what they're getting paid, what kind of percentages and stuff like that.So I think that might be a good idea. Um, I'm going to start one in terms of NFP projects, like how did you hire someone?What did you pay them where you hired and, um, yeah. And in terms of your hourly rate question yet, like there there's graphic artists, guilds, there's all kinds of places that kind of document that stuff.Um, it is, like I said, there's also calculators where you put in your own personal expenses and what you would like to get paid, but of course, it's like, you know, you can ask for money, but if it's a little mom and pop, like maybe they don't have that kind of budget.So then you have to think of kind of Lauren situation where you have to take their budget into account and see how you can work around it and offer different tiers of pricing and see if they'll go for that.Like, there, there is, there's a lot of, lots of, no, a lot to balance when it comes to pricing. So that's why it's so hard to like give a cut and dry number.Like I noticed you said the range is 75 to 150 hours, 150 per hour, um, for graphic design. And that, that seems like a pretty good range.Like I usually try like low, low end, like $80. And that's for graphic design jobs, like in terms of flips, if I'm doing a bunch of little things and it's just not worth pricing project based.Um, yeah. But yeah, That you're making, I'm sorry to interrupt. I get so excited that you're making Elena. I just, I want other people to know, because that is something that you and I take for granted and, and in our world, we don't talk about it unless it's a best friend or something, you don't talk about it.So, um, I think those, you just dropped a nugget right there just saying that little graphic design projects and maybe logos or things like that, $80 an hour.Absolutely. And people don't even know that type of information. And I think that's, I think that's where I'm coming from these just simple information to start, and then you're just going to grow it into this amazing platform.I know. Um, and I'll gather whatever I can for you, because that Would be wonderful. There's, there's no information. Well, that's an, and like in the real illustration world, like we've undermined ourselves so badly with Fiverr and Upwork and people coming straight out of school and being like, oh my God, you love my art.Sure. Take it for a hundred bucks. You know, and there's companies that know that and we'll take advantage of people.And I think we just have this opportunity because web three is so new that if we get this information and education into artists' hands, they can run with it and they know what they're talking about and they know what rights they should be standing up for.So that companies don't take advantage of them. And that keeps the price at a good level for the whole industry.So that's why I want to really spearhead this and, and educate, um, if I can be completely transparent, uh, I just quoted on a, uh, job for a generative art project.It was, uh, three, I'm going to actually drop some numbers for you because, Hey, you know, why not? Um, it was like a 3000 piece collection.It was three bases, different animals. And then, um, about 25 traits or so across all three animals. So everything was, you know, spaced out.Um, I quoted, I, I broke it all down. I did like, you know, here's the per base, here's the fee per like leg for I per whatever it ended up coming to about, uh, 13 K and then I ended up quoting, additionally, if you don't want to use your own developer and you want me to do the work for you in terms of rarity, in terms of generating it, generating the metadata, doing all that coding.I said another 1500 us. So, you know, a good 15 K and that's for a three page project. And I think that was a very fair price.And I also asked for some royalties, because if the project does take off, why shouldn't I gain some of that wealth as well?So there you go. I think just the space needs more transparency. Like let's talk numbers. Like the only people like, you know, companies don't want you to talk numbers because it puts the power in our hands.And like, why not? You know, if we share information, then we all get on the same level and it just makes the playing field so much more even Agreed.Agreed, thank you for sharing that really, really important for everyone to hear. I think something that you all might find interesting from my world and where I'm at in this space in regards to pricing and whatnot is maybe you've seen on social media, but I get booked to speak at a lot of these events.We don't get paid. The only thing that we get paid to speak at these events are if you are a big time name and the big time names have speaker agents, we don't get paid.It's it's it's really, while I sell someone, put this on Twitter the other day, they were like, yeah, what three treats speakers?Like what two treats musicians? And I was like, yeah, how true is it? In fact, at a lot of these events, it's pay to play.You have to pay to get on stage to speak. I know someone who paid $17,000 to speak at de-central Miami.Now mind you, he's part of a massive, massive project. They have a budget for marketing. So they have budget for marketing.And I asked him, I was like, well, is it worth $17,000? He's like, we ended up making a deal that yes, for us, it was worth that $70,000.And I was like, okay, well, that's, that's good to know for me, for myself, I've never paid to be on a stage.I'm now entering a new realm where I am seeing events. So they do pay MCs. So I'm starting to get paid to MC events, but I've never paid at a, at a NFT conference to speak.Now, with that being said, I am getting paid to speak at non NFT events about different things in the NFTs space that I've done.So I recently was brought on by an organization here in Mexico. I live in Cabo, San Lucas, Mexico. And there was an organization that worked with the tourism board for their annual conference.They wanted someone to talk about NFTs. So they brought me on and they're paying me $1,500 for one hour. And so that's that.That's great. Thank you so much. So something that I'm working on right now is I want to get an agent so that when I do get inbound leads and I am doing pop out, reaching out to different platforms and virtual and IRL events that I have an actual agent that handles this for me.So I can start to get paid for this, but this is definitely a topic in the space. Yeah. There's no, while they, they don't pay speakers.That's crazy. I had no idea about that. So that's, that's almost like an artist working for closure, hoping that like, you know, it's a good portfolio piece.Could you clarify that you do get paid if you were like, you know, somebody who has an agent pretty much, if you have an agent you're getting paid, but these beginning level people aren't getting paid, Where you gonna say Where you think they're talking of the mark sense of the world, they're the ones that get paid.Yeah, That's crazy. Wow. I had no idea. Hmm. Yeah. So that's, that's something that, you know, um, I don't mind sharing because at first I was, I was like, that was a little bit, um, like for months I was kind of taken aback by it because I was like, how, how can this be every event that I go, I spent thousands and thousands of dollars.I don't know. Maybe you guys have seen on one of my tech talks, I listed between 15 and $20,000 into what I've done in the web three space.So far, I, this is eight, nine months in that's the podcast that's traveling to events. Um, fortunately I had some money, a good little chunk of money from my business coaching company that I knew I was going to invest in the web three space.I now eight months later, I'm turning the corner into receiving grants and getting funding. And so that's something that you all can, you know, from my learning experience, like it's taken me that much to do what I've done.Wow. Thank you so much for that transparency. Yeah. Because you know, people, people see, you know, a content creator and they're like, oh, they've made it.They're like hot, you know, in the space, but they don't know whether that comes with a dollar amount. You know?So that's a little bit about my journey, Melanie. I see your hand is up. Hey, I was just going to say, I mean, I only have like 1200 followers on Tik TOK.I mean, slowly but surely doing it. But if I just go barge in and I'm like, Hey, I need a grant.I'm a contact rate. Or people are gonna like, laugh me out of the building. No, no, no, no, absolutely not.You are a content creator. It doesn't matter how many followers you have. One thing that is a major shift that's happening in the content creation world is the world of micro influencers.Micro influencers are 10 K. And under you fall under that category. You have a community, you have engagement. You have people who know like, and trust you.It doesn't matter how many followers you have. I've seen two influencers, micro influencers with 500 getting brand deals because companies and brands now understand it doesn't matter how many followers you have.I've also seen studies where a brand, it was, um, it was an individual who works for a company that aligns content creators with brands.And she had a micro-influencer. That was, that was messaging her every month, every month, please, please, please align me with a certain brand.And she had a product from this brand that wasn't selling. And she was like, you know what, after months I'm going to throw her a bone.I'm going to have her sell this product. And he knows probably not going to do well. She doesn't have that many followers.Like she was really like looking down on this micro influencer. This chick ended up selling out this product for that brand, because her micro-community know, like, and trust her so much.And when she brought this product for it, they were like, we're here for it rather than a large scale influencer who they're out there Hawking all kinds of stuff.So you, Melanie, you have 1000, 200 community members use this and start, start moving forward on working with brands and the right way to solve a problem for your community.Yeah, it's true. No, no, I, well, I was just saying, I heard of an influencer with like 2 million followers and she only sold two t-shirts that she was Hawking.You know, like you hear examples like that all the time and it's it's quality over quantity. Well, and I think also that, uh, when it comes to, uh, influencers, uh, selling products on, on their pages, a lot of times they forget that if you're going to brand yourself as sending a specific product, you have to be carrying it with you everywhere you go.And every single video you make. So, uh, for example, Atlanta, you came into this, uh, uh, so meeting you, put your cat chants in the background that is making sure that people are aware of what you're doing.So for every single video you make for every single outreach that you make, you always think clued your product somehow.So that's that, that $2 million, I mean, 2 million influencer person, she probably was accustomed to dancing or showing other, other things, but never showed the product consistently.So people weren't interested in buying an item that she wasn't using herself Correctly. Yes. And something else to, for everyone to remember is when you create a product or a service that solves problem for other people, if you get nervous about the act of actually selling it, when you're solving a problem for other people, selling is actually serving.So you're serving your audience because you've saw you now have the solution to a problem that they have. So don't ever feel small about letting your community and your audience know about the services or product that you might have be proud of what it is that you've created, because you were actually serving them.Definitely that's. That's why I always bring up my contract thing because the people that have purchased it, they say, oh my gosh, I wish I had this five, 10 years ago.You know, it's helping me get a percentage up front. I didn't even think to ask a client for a percentage right.Upfront. It's like, well, you don't want to get screwed over. If they run away with the money, like at least you're getting partially paid, you know?So yeah. It's like, how are you helping them? I just want to say, thank you so much for that perspective, outside sales for close to 25 years.And people always ask me, how long have you been doing this? If I ever go back and I don't think I will, but if I were to go back and somebody asked me that I will tell them I've been in the solution services business since Rebranded it, the idea of being sold something.But if you're giving them a solution, they like it Solving problems for 25 years. Exactly. Exactly. Well, I did have allocated to end at the top of the hour.So we have about seven minutes left. Any other questions, comments that we want to get into for these last few minutes?No, I was just going to speak on, uh, working for free since it came up earlier. Um, some people, yeah.You know, like, do you work for free? Yes or no? And I say, no, you don't, but if it's for a good cause if it's for something you believe in, if imbalances out that it's a fun project, um, there's a lot of things to take into account.Like right now, I'm starting up with the Crip tooth fairies. Um, I'm donating 10 pieces of artwork to Cory crypto's collaboration.I'm getting value in the way of him promoting it. Him putting me up on the website, uh, him talking about me on his talk.Uh, there is a charitable donation going to, uh, children can't afford dental care. There are just so many good points and it's increasing my audience.So I mean, if, if a brand is coming up to you and they're saying like, oh, here it works for free it's it's exposure.It's like, well, no, I don't want to work for free to help you make money. You know, I think you have to think about it as a balance.Like, are you getting something in return? Um, even bartering, maybe your friend with a developer, they need art. You need developing, you need coding, then, you know, barter do a trade.So there are situations where you can work for free. Just make sure it's not, you'll know it in your gut.You'll know it in your gut. If it's not right. Sorry, Jessie, what did you have to say? I just wanted to make a comment on pricing or generative art collections from the creator's perspective.That's one of, one of the main questions I've been asking myself because I have to figure out the pricing on my collection.And one of the things that I arrived at is going about it, the sort of like the way that Atlanta was talking about breaking it down to the different traits, et cetera, down to its bare bones.And what I did was is give myself a, basically a base price for the whole collection. And from there I needed to figure out what's the price point that I think is reasonable.And if I want to bring it down even more than what I was considering doing is if the price feels like it's too high for the demographics that I'm trying to reach and mind you, I'm trying to reach a very much web to people that are, I'm trying to onboard onto web three.Then what I was considering doing was creating, making the collection that much bigger so that I can parse out that base price that I had given myself and break it down per piece.So if it's a 10,000, the bite that into the basic price that I've given myself, if it's, you know, a 15,000 divide that into the whatever base price, that's how I was approaching pricing.I wanted to ask you, what do you think? Yeah, I think also, um, I don't know if you're familiar, but there was a big project that just released called illogical and they did a free mint, absolutely free.They're making all their money on their secondary sales. So in terms of, if you are making it accessible for people, maybe, um, in terms of onboarding, maybe you go in with a very small price, a very low price, something that can just get them into the process of setting up a wallet and purchasing.And it's not a high entry point, but maybe you up the royalty a lot more on the secondary sales. Um, and, and again, like you said, like 10 K something bigger where, where those royalties are gonna make a difference if you do sell out.But they had, um, I highly recommend looking into it because they had a really unique, uh, marketing thing where they would open and close their discord.So it was a private discord and they would send out links so that you get in. And the FOMO they created was incredible.They sold out the whole collection of minutes and now it's all just being traded and they have token Nomics, right from the start, like just crazy moonshot project.Um, I really want to take some of what I've learned from what they did to like, influence what I'm doing.Um, but yeah, but I think your approach is very good to like kind of figure out what you want to pay yourself and, and break it down and also look at your audience and the interests.And are you going to be investing money into marketing all this? Like, there's a, there's a lot of time components to not beyond the art.Like I found our work for my project was the quickest part. You know, I got that done at the start and then it was, it was the marketing, it was, it was the community building.It was the content creation. So I think you have to really think about all that as well. We'll do that answers your question.Just, just like Lauren. I, I took a deep dive into this space. I started in August of last year. And since then, uh, I stopped working, uh, in a regular nine to five in, um, what was it October?And I've been using my personal funds since then. So at this point, I'm like, I need to take that into account in whatever pricing I give it because I have to give myself a retroactive salary once.So yeah. So thank you. Yeah, it makes total sense. Yeah, definitely. Good luck. I had a question too. One more thing.So I got approached like two months ago to do a generative project for somebody man that I met on, uh, a space and they were really cool guys.I had a whole web meeting. They made me sign an NDA and I like that. They're like, oh yeah, like do like a quick sketch.And then we'll like talk, you know, contracts and like everything else. And like, it was cool. And I did them, their sketch and they want me to do all their promotional materials and their logos and like all their little like stuff to put on Twitter, like their little like canvas videos and stuff.And I was like running all around, but then I made, I made like a couple of quick sketches and I put watermarks all over because we didn't sign the contract yet.And then I like went back to them and they were like, oh yeah, like our developer quit or something like, we'll get back to you in a few months.And I was like, oh my God. Like, are they gonna like, screw me out of my picture now? Like I spent all day on it and I'm like, I mean, it was like, I shouldn't have like, made them, give me some money up front to even do the first sketches.Right. Like, was that stupid? Yeah, it's true. But I mean, you know, you gotta feel it out. Like sometimes, I mean, it is good to get paid for sketches and occasionally I have gotten paid for sketches.Um, but I mean, I've also done little free, like really quick thumbnails just to ideate, to like visually, um, communicate.Uh, I actually did like three little thumbnails for that, uh, generative part project that I was, uh, running with because I wanted to show what I was thinking in terms of all the different pieces.And it's just an easier way than words. I dunno. But I saw it personally as an investment. Like if I get this deal, I'm kind of like pitching myself.So, I mean, it really is up to the individual. Yeah. That's I mean, I didn't do work, but again, I put like, I did like a real good drawing, but then I put like my watermark for it.So they couldn't like, I was just like, should I have asked for money? I mean, they seem like good dudes.Like I had one of them's a lawyer. I did sign the NDA. Like I think they're like, okay. But I was just like freaking out.I'm like, next time is having. Yeah. Or you could make them sign a little MBA on your end that they can't use your artwork to hire another artist.And I mean, it can be as simple as that, just sign a couple of sentences on a piece of paper.If I can say something, Melanie, I would've done the same thing you did. I don't think you did anything wrong.You'd go with your gut. A lot has been there. She's been there every day, just like me, but this is what you do.When that happens. You take that drawing and you use it, you use it on Tik TOK, you use it on Twitter, use it on your portfolio.You're not rubbing it in anybody's faces or doing anything inappropriate, but show your process. Hey, this is an example of getting, um, you know, approach by an NFT project.Something I put together, uh, just like when you're designing a logo or anything else, show your process, show your artwork off, especially now that this is kind of evaporated at this point, but, um, use it so kind of flip it.That's my, I love that. I love that idea. Yeah. Give value from something that you gave away for free. Uh, I would say that it helps also cementing your, um, IP rights to the image.If they didn't buy it off of you, then you continue to own them and making a point of putting them on your social, saying, this is a example of work that I've done.Never say that you did it on spec because everybody's going to tell you it'll never work on spec because you're always going to get burned.But, uh, if you put it, this is an example of a, uh, possible project that, uh, I discussed at one point, Hey, you cement your IP rights and you also create content for yourself that can maybe get you somebody else that will pay you next time.Definitely. It's also showing that you have experience in this space too. So even that is like increasing your clout in your experience.This has been so informative and so helpful. I know I learned a lot on typing up some recap notes and we recorded this on my end.So one of my team members will, um, get this recording uploaded and then we can share it as a, um, we can make a lead magnet out of it.So it can be a freebie if everyone's okay with this being recorded and shared outside. Is that cool? Cool, Awesome.Um, and yeah, and so I'll have my team, you just make it, you know, a free lead magnet out of this so that we can share this with the other people inside our chat and then anyone that we want to share it with as well.I'm so happy we did this. It was awesome to connect. Yeah. Thank you so much. So great to finally talk to you face to face.Exactly. I'm gonna head out now. I'm gonna go get some lunch, cause I just realized I haven't done that today.So it was great to see everyone and I will get the recording shared with everyone as soon as we get that completed For you.Thank You. Have a great day. Thank you everyone for joining.